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How many of you are using 2F powder in .40 caliber rifles?
I have been playing around with 50-55 grains of 2F in my .40 caliber table gun with very good results. I've tried Goex, Olde Enysford and Swiss and surprisingly there is very little differenice between them. Swiss may have a slight edge but barely.
Tried 60 grains with all 3 powders and the groups started opening back up.
Went from 40 grains of 3F to 55 grains of 2F and shrunk my group from 1 1/2" down to an 1". Only changed powder and nothing else.
Had heard it mentioned before and one older shooter told me that one time he had a .40 that wouldn't group and switched from 3F to 2F and brought it right in.
Any thoughts ?
Carl
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Carl,
Like most folks, I'm shooting 3f in my 40 cal.
She's a longnosed Southern Mountain Rifle with a 42" B-wt. Rice bbl. I rarely ever bench this rifle, and my offhand technique is so poor, that it's tough to tell much difference in the different loads I've tried since getting her, about a year ago..!!
"Big-Nosed Kate" likes 50-55 gns. 3f Goex.
If you don't mind my asking, what range are you shooting to test the powders, and what sort of rest are you using...??
I have a bit of 2f around, and might have to give it a try.
Are you wiping between shots..?? Do you notice any significant change in fouling..??
Thanks...I enjoy exploring "options"...it's part of the fun..!!
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I too shoot 3F in my traditional .36 & .40 flintlock rifles and my question should have been a little more defined and should have read .40 caliber black powder rifles shot off a rest or bench.
I'm shooting my targets at 30 yards off of a table shooting table using the wooden pyramid rest under the barrel and a small sand bag under the stock for support.
The rifle has a 15/16" x 38" - 1 in 48" twist barrel made by Kentuckian Wayne Jenkins. Siler large percussion lock and Davis set triggers. It has a half stock of Ash and weighs in at 9.7 pounds.
I'm using my regular components, .395 ball, .023 Army duck Mr. Flintlock for a patch lube. That combination and 50 grains of 2F Goex is what I won the TS Aggregate at Friendship with in June.
I wanted to try other powders, so leaving everything else the same I weighted out 50 grains of Goex, Olde Enysford and Swiss. Repeated again with 55 grains and the 60 grains.
I do not wipe between shots, I wiped it out between the different weights of each powder and fired a fouling shot before starting the next test.
I did not detect any more fouling than before and each shot seemed to load the same.
Suprisingly for each powder 50 grains was good, 55 grains was better and 60 grains began to open back up. I will say that the Swiss may have a very small advantage on group size but all three were much better than the 3F I had been shooting.
I had been fighting fliers with everything I had tried using 3F powder. In talking to one of the vendors at Friendship who was a serious chunk gun shooter in years past and telling him my problems he suggested trying 2F as he had had a similar problem with a .40 that he shot and the 2F solved his problem. So off to the range I go with a whole box of new things to try and it seems to be working out very well.
I am fortunate in that I own some 80 acres of land on which I live, I have a small covered firing line about 40 yards from the house and targets at 25, 30 & 50 yards. Being a metal fabricator, I have built 2 bullet traps for catching the lead and each one is large enough to take a 24" x 24" target board that slides in tracks across the front so that targets and sighters can be stapled on. We can shoot offhand or table shoot just about anytime and usually there are 3-4 buddies at my place once a week burning up black powder.
Sorry about the long response, hope this answers your questions.
Carl
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Carl,
First..No need to apologize for the long response. In fact, just the opposite...I really appreciate the time you took to provide so much detailed information. Thank You.
I've recently taken to using Mr. Flintlock myself, also without wiping between individual shots. I'm also evaluating the "Original Formula Lehigh Valley Lube" that has come back on the market. Picked up a bottle at Friendship in June and have been shooting it side-by-side with my Mr. Flintlock. Jury is still out on that question.
One question that came to me, as I read your post is whether you're are using pre-weighed charges..??
Are the amounts of powder you're quoting actual weights on a scale, or are those numbers what your volumetric measure is set at ??
I just bought a bag of screw-top vials that will allow me to weigh out powder charges before a match and haven't done any testing with them, Vs. pouring from a can into a volumetric measure at the loading bench.
In my experience, 15/16th barrels bench just fine. I've found a "Sweet spot" on mine which are also in half-stock rifles, about 12.5 in. back from the muzzle that I marked with a wrap of tape to be sure I'm resting at the same spot everytime.
When I was working up a load for the York, 60 yd. Chunk match I was working with a 50 cal. and also found a slight, but noticeable advantage to Swiss, (2f) over 2f Goex. I don't use Swiss in my offhand shooting however as whatever advantage there might be gets completely washed out once I have to stand on my hind legs and shoot without any support or rest.
Thanks again and congratulations on your excellent performance at Friendship...always a treat to see what our champions are doing.
Last edited by Don Steele (7/21/2016 5:56 AM)
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Don,
All of the powder is weighed out on an old Ohaus 1010 beam scale down to a tenth of a grain.
Balls are also weighed and grouped in batches that only vary by +/- .1 grains, 91.1 -91.3 / 91.4 -91.6 and so on.
I have found that charges poured from a volume measure are not consistent and by weighing the charges I eliminate one more variable that may effect my group size.
I found a batch of small glass vials that I use for the powder charges also. They have rubber stoppers rather than threaded caps.
I do like Mr. Flintlock as a patch lube. I put it on my strip of material with one of those very small spray bottles and spread it out with my finger so that the material is dampened but not soaking wet. Every shot seems to load the same and I can shoot a match without cleaning and shots stay consistent from start to finish. The gun also seems to clean up much quicker at the end of the day.
As you do, I enjoy trying new things to see if I can get just a little more accuracy out of these black powder guns. It is indeed a lot of fun.
We're going to do a little table shooting here today to get warmed up for a shoot Saturday over at Morehead, KY about a 2 hour drive from my house. 3 of us are going, it's a 10 shot match so it will be a good time.
Keep shooting !!
Carl
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Carl,
Interesting as always.
I use 60 grains goex 3f by volume in my GM .40 (1 1/8, 36L). When I tested briefly years ago, 55 and 60 were close/identical, but 60 is more stable when I get an anemic batch of goex, which is fairly often. I think with weight, all the powders should be close as you observed. I would bet my 60 grain volume charge of goex weighs about the same as a 55 grain volume of Swiss.
It would be informative to note the volumetric differences of the weighed charges, between brands and also, I expect, different charges of the same brand.
2f might be better or worse depending on barrel specifics, bbl length, twist, groove depth, ad infinitum. It is on my to-do list to do some of this experimentation someday, surely by the time my boy gets through school ...
One thing I was thinking about with 2f is that it tolerates a bigger touchhole. If 3f starts dusting the pan (self priming),at all, it seems like consistency drops off quickly... especially in a 40 with its relatively high pressure.
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Barton,
In weighing my test amounts I used a regular adjustable powder measure to get close to the desired weigh and then used a RCBS powder trickier to bring the weight up to the desired weight on an Ohaus beam scale.
2F Goex would be pretty close to the number set on the powder measure. For Swiss and Olde Enysford the powder measure would have to be closed by about 4-5 grains to throw the same weight on the scale pan. Thus the bulk density of Swiss and Olde Enysford is higher than that of Goex.
You can see just by looking that 2F Goex has a much larger grain size than the other two. Matter of fact when I opened up the 2F Olde Enysford and poured some out I thought the can was marked wrong. I poured out some 3F Olde Enysford that I had and it was hard to tell the difference looking at the granules.
2F Swiss was a smaller granule than Goex closer to the size of the 2F Olde Enysford but much more uniform granules.
I think even with weighed charges, the uniformity of the grain size in the Swiss makes for more uniformity shot to shot when used in a rifle on a rest.
Just my thoughts though, I'm sure there a lot of other thoughts out there on this subject.
Carl
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Carl,
I agree with your thoughts. Though weighing charges insures about the same "energy", the variations in volume and propagation due to grain size variations seem likely to cause some variations in the pressure curve. Swiss is top of the line stuff.
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A conversation over on the American Longrifles Forum got into differences in powders.
Here's a link to the whole thread:
I got out my scale, and did a little comparison testing as follows:
For this test, I'm using a plastic Thompson Center powder measure with a pouring spout that slides over the end of the powder chamber. I have checked it against weighed charges in the past and found that it's right on the money with Goex 3f. For this test, I set it to throw "80 grains" and poured it full in the same manner I do when I'm loading at the range. I then emptied the measure into my scale pan and got a weight on it.
Repeated 5 times with each powder, pouring a new charge from the powder can.
My Goex 2f gave me an average actual weight of 73.7 gns. with a 1.4 gn. spread from lowest wt. to highest in the Goex series.
My Swiss 2f gave me an average actual wt. of 80.6 gns. with a 0.7 gn. spread..lowest to highest in this series.
Thanks to a donation from our friend Moleeyes I was also able to report the following results of 5 charges of Olde Eynsford 2f powder that were thrown, using the same measure that I used to prepare the previous report comparing Goex and Swiss.
As before, repeated 5 times, each time was a new "80 gn" charge from the can.
Olde Eynsford 2f gave an average actual weight of 78.0 gns. with a 2.0 gn spread between the lowest and highest wts. in this series.
I was a little surprised at the spread I got with the Olde Eynsford. It could easily be just personal error and a larger, more statistically valid sampling would wash it out. That wasn't my goal however. I just wanted to find out how the loading density between these 3 common powders compared and I believe we have enough information to know what we should expect, in general terms.
My scale has NOT been calibrated with NIST certified weights.
Your results with your measure and your scale may differ. These are mine.
Last edited by Don Steele (7/23/2016 4:44 AM)
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Don,
That's a nice little test that you did.
The accuracy of the scale is not a factor it's more about its repeatability.
I think the variation in the Olde Enysford has a great deal to do with the wide variation in granule size. Settling in the can as it's moved about during the pouring of a charge could cause a settling or shifting of granules and you could end up with an uneven distribution of big and small granules from charge to charge.
Again with the Swiss having the more uniform looking granules it would tend to be more repeatable when using a volume measure.
Will check out the ALR Forum and see what's there.
Keep shooting,
Carl
Last edited by cking (7/23/2016 5:53 AM)
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The wide range observed in the Olde Eynsford results really surprised me. It "looked better" than that.
I've never used it for shooting. I only came be the can to run this test when Moleeyes saw my ALR post and loaned me a can to add to the data.
Swiss is gorgeous. Even though it's labelled "2f" just like the others..it looks more fine than Goex or Olde Eynsford.
That might be due to the more uniform granules. It really looks good. I would go over to it completely but for the fact that I would have to replace the sights on my SMR to accommodate the higher p.o.i. it will give me, and while I'm convinced it's a better choice for serious target shooting, I shoot the SMR offhand, woodswalks, gongs, etc. and (sadly) my offhand ability is not sufficient to ever see much difference.
I am using Swiss for any shooting done from a rest. My tests show a small, but noticeable improvement in group size. Those tests were done using "hand poured charges" at the loading bench, using a volumetric measure. I'm wondering if that small difference would remain if I compared individually scale- weighed charges of Swiss vs. Goex..???
Hmmmmm.....projects...projects..!!
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Don,
Like you my off hand shooting is not the best way to evaluate components at the range.
I do shoot 3F Olde Enysford in my 36 and 40 traditional flintlock rifles. It shoots good and cleans up easy at the end of the day. I shoot 2F Goex in my 54 traditional flintlock. I've won enough of it over the years that I never had to go out and buy anything different.
I think if you do tests of weighed charges of Goex vs Swiss at the bench off a rest you'll find them very close to the same. A slight edge to the Swiss. At least that's what I have found with my table gun and components I'm using.
But we all know every rifle is different so that's a "reason" to load everything up and head to the range for hours of "testing" to find out what's best in your gun.
Inquiring minds have to know!!
Keep shooting,
Carl
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I did weigh some charges of goex 3f and found that 75 gr. by volume was always 71-72 gr. Reasonable consistency, though I want to switch to Swiss 2f in my 50s especially and will weigh it up when I get some. I did not weigh charges but was extra careful about consistently measuring and emptying the measure at my next chunk shoot (Louisa) and it did no harm, anyway. For that match, I did weigh balls to +/-.5 gr and that gave me some extra confidence at the very least, and possibly reduced flyers. The hornadys ranged from 181 to 187 gr. unsorted. I'm hoping that 2f Swiss will eliminate more flyers and wide shots. My intuition is that sight picture and consistent position are most important and my major problems, but it is nice to eliminate as many variables as possible.
Now, let me embarrass myself. The first trial with 3f goex yielded 71, 38, 24. Powder was sticking in the brass measure. I believe this was in part because I was being gentle with the scale, but it could also happen during a match if one wasn't careful. Exacerbating the problem, in my opinion, was that the powder used was the last bit of a can, so the amount of fines could have been higher than otherwise, leading to compaction. I've also had the bottom of an adjustable measure come loose, and the resulting inconsistency is not pretty! That consistent grain size of Swiss is very attractive!
So, I'd been dragging my feet on weighing balls and powder as unnecessary bother given the sorry way I shoot, but it now seems an efficient use of time.
Thanks again, Carl, for sharing your processes and opening up the discussion!
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Barton,
I think you will find the time spent weighing out powder charges and weighing out round balls is indeed time we'll spent. Anything that can be done to minimize variables at the bench has to improve one's scores.
Right now I've been shooting 57.5 grains of 2F Swiss, 2F Olde Enysford and 2F Goex with very good results from all 3 powders, there almost identical as to group size but I think the Swiss group is a little bit smaller. So I practice with the Goex and O.E. and load up the Swiss for the competition.
And as you said, concentrating on sight picture, trigger pull and positioning the rifle the same each time are extremely important in shooting consistantly. I'm beginning to think that good shooting is 95% mental and 5% hardware.
I was watching a fellow table shooting yesterday and after about 10 shots he had 2 distinct groups about 1 1/2" apart vertically and he couldn't figure it out. As I watched him shoot a few more shots, he had a couple of caps that didn't fire and I could see a very noticeable flinch and he was moving the butt of the gun vertically every time but he wasn't aware of it.
Concentration on all of the details for each shot is the key to consistent shooting. It's a mind game for sure.
PRACTICE ! PRACTICE !
Carl
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Don Steele,
I did go to the ALR Forum site and checked out the black powder discussion that you referred to.
Read all of it and found it quite interesting and informative.
Thanks for the reference.
Carl
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I tried using 2f Goex for offhand shooting in my 40 cal. SMR. The results weren't good and it's too close to Friendship to start changing things that have worked for the past year.
One thing for sure though is that I'll be using pre-weighed charges of Swiss in my 50 cal rifle for any shooting I'm doing from any kind of rest..e.g.: Table and Chunk. I'm already weighing my home-cast balls (+/- 0.5 gns for the 50's) and using uniformly lubed water/Ballistol dry patch material (or Teflon when allowed).
Equally important to all that however is the benefit of PRACTICE. I don't shoot those "rest games" year around and always observe my groups improving when I focus several practice sessions on those competitions ahead of match time. I'm sure that improvement is coming from developing a consistent hold, consistent sight picture and the developed ability to HOLD STILL through the shot.
Let's take all this good information to Friendship next week and see what we can do..!!!
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Don,
I've never tried 2F in an offhand rifle, I'm a big fan of 3F Olde Enysford in my 36 & 40 offhand rifles.
When will you be at Friendship for the Nationals? Would like to meet and talk with you a while if your schedule permits. I'm only a little more than an hour away from Friendship, matter of fact if you come up I 75 you go right by my place on your way to Friendship.
Send me an email at flintlock54@zoomtown.com and I'll give you my cell number and maybe we can meet and discuss this fine art of black powder shooting.
Carl