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2/14/2015 6:47 PM  #1


45 Cal load

What's a accurate load for a 45 cal. 1-60 twist barrel? I'm using a .495 bal, .020 canvas patch w/ Mr, Flintlock lube. Anyone shooting a .454 ball and getting good results?

Grey Hawk

 

2/14/2015 7:22 PM  #2


Re: 45 Cal load

I think I need a fact check. There may be a typo here, I would not see your 495 going down a 45 caliber barrel without the use of extreme external force


Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.
Theodore Roosevelt
“I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.”
John Wayne
 

2/14/2015 8:29 PM  #3


Re: 45 Cal load

You are absolutly right. That should have been a .445 ball. Brain fart I guess.
Grey Hawk

     Thread Starter
 

2/15/2015 10:46 AM  #4


Re: 45 Cal load

Usually you will have to work up your best load through trial and error until you hit on the load you're happy with at the distance you wish to shoot. 45 grains of 2ff or 3fff (whichever you prefer) is always a good starting point. Increase your load variations by 5 grains with each new search. I've also found that a tight patch and ball combination works best.

Good luck (this is the fun part IMHO to shooting)

Last edited by Candle Snuffer (2/15/2015 11:06 AM)


Joe
 

2/15/2015 11:09 AM  #5


Re: 45 Cal load

I have two 45 barrels that have a 60 inch twist in both I use a .451 ball and a good load in either of them ranges from 60 to 70 grains of 3F GOEX and I have been expermenting with the new Olde Eynsford with some very good results. .020 Teflon works great but lately I have also been working with a .022 canvas patching using Stumpy's Stump Juice and that has shot as well as the teflon so far.

RB


One good shot doesn't make a match but one bad shot dang sure can ruin a match!
 

2/15/2015 1:34 PM  #6


Re: 45 Cal load

Rich,
.451 ball with .020 or .022 patches in a .45 caliber barrel probably takes a pretty good size hammer to.load.
Mark

 

2/15/2015 4:22 PM  #7


Re: 45 Cal load

Okay guys I have to know are we talking about a rifle here or here or cap & ball revolver. Doesn't make sense to me how you guys are poking balls bore smaller than diameter of diameter of the ball . can I get an explanation please? ? ? Signed confuse.


Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.
Theodore Roosevelt
“I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.”
John Wayne
 

2/15/2015 4:40 PM  #8


Re: 45 Cal load

MMprwarner wrote:

Okay guys I have to know are we talking about a rifle here or here or cap & ball revolver. Doesn't make sense to me how you guys are poking balls bore smaller than diameter of diameter of the ball . can I get an explanation please? ? ? Signed confuse.

Sitting here waiting for that first snow flake to make it's way down past my window!

Mark me a little confused also! I've seen the shooters use a small hammer to get the ball/patch combination started numerous times and know what their doing this for! At what point does this change the ball into something other than a round ball? I know the patching will compress somewhat but how much?
Has anyone started a real tight combination then removed it to see what happens to the ball?
Would just like to know.
I would think ...if using a hammer to start the ball/patch then it's no longer a ball! Well maybe an elongated ball  (think round nose slug) if ever so slight!
I don't know!
Big John

 


Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there.
Will Rogers
 

2/15/2015 6:01 PM  #9


Re: 45 Cal load

smokinbuck wrote:

Rich,
.451 ball with .020 or .022 patches in a .45 caliber barrel probably takes a pretty good size hammer to.load.
Mark

I though this was a target shooters forum?

A little hammer, I can load it by whacking it with the palm of my hand but all day at the range and a nylon tipped brass hammer is just easier probably weighs 4 to 6 oz. At some point too large of a ball and tight a patch and the patching material becomes stressed so there needs to be some expermenting to see what shoots best.

I remember seeing shooters at Friendship loading a .410 ball into a 40 cal rifle? This was with a false muzzle I have tried it in my 40 cal rifle and the ball didn't get any longer it just swelled out to fit the rifling grooves this was in a Rice barrel. I have a Bresien Heavy bench rifle that uses a .550 ball .020 Teflon this is in a 54 cal rifle with a false muzzle. I have drove that combination through the false muzzle and the same thing the ball just swells out to fill the rifling grooves does not get longer. I have tried a .455 ball in my Bill Large 45 cal rifle and that is too tight I usually tear the patch somewhere but again the ball does not get longer and turn into a conical bullet it does the same as above just swell out and fill the grooves. Standard load for that rifle is a .451 ball with .022 canvas patching or .020 Teflon with 70 grains of 3F Olde Eynsford shoots good! Along with my trusty hammer!

?????

RB







 


One good shot doesn't make a match but one bad shot dang sure can ruin a match!
 

2/15/2015 8:00 PM  #10


Re: 45 Cal load

rhbrink wrote:

smokinbuck wrote:

Rich,
.451 ball with .020 or .022 patches in a .45 caliber barrel probably takes a pretty good size hammer to.load.
Mark

I though this was a target shooters forum?
It is! What'sthe difference in how you load being it paper, iron anything else you want to shoot at?

 I have tried a .455 ball in my Bill Large 45 cal rifle and that is too tight I usually tear the patch somewhere but again the ball does not get longer and turn into a conical bullet it does the same as above just swell out and fill the grooves. Standard load for that rifle is a .451 ball with .022 canvas patching or .020 Teflon with 70 grains of 3F Olde Eynsford shoots good! Along with my trusty hammer!
Swelling out and filling the groves explains it. I used to shoot .535 balls and .022 canvas patching in my off hand rifle but it was to hard to load out of the pouch. I backed down to a .530 and it would start a lot easier with my short starter. Of course the short starter was a fairly good sized piece of an elk horn and spread the whacking with my palm over a big area.
I couldn't tell any difference in the accuracy but I wasn't shooting at circles on a paper either!


?????
????? Just asking questions!

RB







 

 


Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there.
Will Rogers
 

2/15/2015 9:56 PM  #11


Re: 45 Cal load

I have shot .451 Hornady balls with .018 spit patched pillow ticking over 65 grains of Goex 3fg with good results out of my Green Mnt Brls, 1 in 60 twist. However, because of the local shooting we do around where I live, I've long since settle on a .445 Hornady ball with the same patch and charge.  I can't say as I've seen a lot of difference between the two - but that may be because I always swabbed between shots when using the .451 combo, and I don't swab between shots when using the .445 ball combo.

Truth be known, over the last 40 years of doing this muzzle loading game, I've shot so many different calibers and loads through different rifles to realize that one still has to work up the best combination load they are seeking for their intended purpose. What works for Peter very well may not work for Paul. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/worried.png


Joe
 

2/16/2015 8:02 AM  #12


Re: 45 Cal load

Very, very true Candle Snuffer.

One thing that I noticed when using a oversized ball is the as the ball swells out to fill the grooves it actually gets shorter in lenght and takes on a eight sided appearance. I really wondered how that could possibly be accurate but they shoot very well that way probably as long as the lead is evenly distributed. Thinking about it Whitworth made a rifle bore that was six sided and swaged a six sided bullet to exactly fit that bore and that combination shot very well out to one thousand yards and maybe farther.

RB


One good shot doesn't make a match but one bad shot dang sure can ruin a match!
 

2/16/2015 8:53 AM  #13


Re: 45 Cal load

rhbrink wrote:

Very, very true Candle Snuffer.

One thing that I noticed when using a oversized ball is the as the ball swells out to fill the grooves it actually gets shorter in lenght and takes on a eight sided appearance. I really wondered how that could possibly be accurate but they shoot very well that way probably as long as the lead is evenly distributed. Thinking about it Whitworth made a rifle bore that was six sided and swaged a six sided bullet to exactly fit that bore and that combination shot very well out to one thousand yards and maybe farther.

RB

I watched a Youtube video the other day with a guy shooting hexegon bullet from a Whitworth rifle. I'd love to have one, but at my age and the shooting I do it wouldn't get much use, but they were the thing of their day back then.

Here is a little tip that I've used over the years to get a tighter patch ball combo from both a .445 and .495 Hornady balls and .018 patch. If I feel I need a tighter combo I will put one of my 1-1/4" newspaper patches I've punched out and carry with me between the patch and ball. When shooting x-sticks I've done this a lot with good results.

You just gotta love this hobby/sport. There's nothing quite like it IMHO! http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/happy.png


Joe
 

2/16/2015 9:45 AM  #14


Re: 45 Cal load

I can understand the use of oversize balls and have done so, within reasonable tolerances, but it seems to me that the pressure at the muzzle from loading would start tearing the patches at the dimensions we are talking about here. I've had little experience with false muzzles and maybe it would make a difference but It just doesn't sound right. Might be a good experiment when the weather turns.
Mark

 

2/16/2015 2:49 PM  #15


Re: 45 Cal load

Hey guys, it's been a really interesting conversation so far, but does anybody have an answer for the original question of a really good patch powder combination using a .445, ball and .45 cal.
 
As for me, Gray Hawk. I think I would start with some .018 .020 Patch and if you like George's AKA Mr. Flintlock’s lube I’d try to stay with that. It wouldn't bother me any to start down around 50 grains FFF and work my way up. I wouldn't think anything past 90 grains would do much good. (But I've been wrong before), with both sizes of patch. I believed that each individual muzzle loading barrel has personality in order to find that Prince of a load your barrel may have to, kiss a lot of toads. I guess in short, you'll have to spend some time at the range experimenting with stuff that doesn't work to find the one that does.
Thanks for listening. Good luck be talking to you down the road.
 


Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.
Theodore Roosevelt
“I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.”
John Wayne
 

2/16/2015 5:08 PM  #16


Re: 45 Cal load

MMprwarner wrote:

Hey guys, it's been a really interesting conversation so far, but does anybody have an answer for the original question of a really good patch powder combination using a .445, ball and .45 cal.

I shot .54 cal. most all my shooting years. Just recently I started shooting a .45.
The last trip to the range I was using .440 ball, .022 canvas patching spit lube just trying to find something that works.
I had to smack it pretty good to get it started but it went down easily after that. I interlocked 3 balls at 30 yards.
Since I was trying a load for the table shoots, I put a X in this group and reloaded.
The shot went 3/4" high and 1/2" right of the group! Reloaded and put another ball cutting this same hole! I then moved the X up to this 2 hole group, reloaded and put the next shot through the first 3 hole group. Go figure!!
Richard accused me of "hole chasing" (which I was) and some advice about "You'll never catch up!"
Good advice in my book.
I'll shoot then place the X in the same spot and take the consequences!
My only experience with a .45 caliber!

Big John

 


Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there.
Will Rogers
 

2/16/2015 11:48 PM  #17


Re: 45 Cal load

I agree that what works for one barrel will not necessarily work for next.  Several guns same caliber have slightly different loads (powder & ball size/patch thickness).  I’ve always started at a medium distance with a stable position and shot 3 to 5 shot groups with different powder charges to see what groups the best.  Then I’ll start the sight in process.  Almost never do I finish working up the load or sighting in on the same day.  I’ll spread it out 2 or 3 trips to the range spread out the variables.  That’s how it goes when I do it right.  However, in some cases (Musket) I’ve done a lot of load and sight in work during matches – the wrong way.  You have to be patient and try the different suggestions and always keep an open mind – never one universal right answer – one shot is never a group!
 


Parkawood -
 

2/17/2015 8:29 AM  #18


Re: 45 Cal load

There is no way to answer the original poster's question. He has to work up a good load through trial and error with variations of powder, ball, and patch thickness. He will also need to swab between shots to keep the bore of his rifle as consistant as possible. As pointed out by Parkawood, it takes a while to do it right.  


Joe
 

2/17/2015 9:49 AM  #19


Re: 45 Cal load

I think Joel and Park have got it. Normally takes me a couple of trips to the range, maybe three to really get the job done right. One of the things I do. I do not necessarily take the sites to the center of the target immediately. I work on loads varying patch thickness, powder charges even ball sizes. I find the combination of that will shoot the tightest group. I then began to work with the sites to pull them to the desired point of impact.


Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.
Theodore Roosevelt
“I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.”
John Wayne
 

2/19/2015 2:06 AM  #20


Re: 45 Cal load

BALL SIZE AND PATCH  ALL DEPENDS ON THE BARREL MAKER. I HAVE SEEN 45 THAT A 440 .010 TICKING IS A TIGHT FIT AND 45 THAT BEVELS USE A 451 WITH .020 TEFLON. WELCOME TO THE JOYS OF A MUZZLE LOADER.IF IT WAS CUSTOM BARREL CALL THE BARREL MAKER   .THEY WILL TELL YOU WHAT THE LOAD THE GUYS ARE SHOOTING. THE FUN COMES IN IF THEY SEND THEIR BARREL OUT TO BE DRILLED. I REMEMBER PAUL GRIFFITH CUSSING A BLUE STREAK UP ON HIS 50 CALS TILL HE GOT HIS OWN DEEP WELL DRILL..THE BALLS COULD BE ANYWHERE FROM 490 TO 505 WITH THE SAME  .020 TEFLON PATCH DEPENDING ON WHO DRILLED THE BARREL
 DAG

 

 

2/19/2015 8:02 AM  #21


Re: 45 Cal load

dag wrote:

BALL SIZE AND PATCH  ALL DEPENDS ON THE BARREL MAKER. I HAVE SEEN 45 THAT A 440 .010 TICKING IS A TIGHT FIT AND 45 THAT BEVELS USE A 451 WITH .020 TEFLON. WELCOME TO THE JOYS OF A MUZZLE LOADER.IF IT WAS CUSTOM BARREL CALL THE BARREL MAKER   .THEY WILL TELL YOU WHAT THE LOAD THE GUYS ARE SHOOTING. THE FUN COMES IN IF THEY SEND THEIR BARREL OUT TO BE DRILLED. I REMEMBER PAUL GRIFFITH CUSSING A BLUE STREAK UP ON HIS 50 CALS TILL HE GOT HIS OWN DEEP WELL DRILL..THE BALLS COULD BE ANYWHERE FROM 490 TO 505 WITH THE SAME  .020 TEFLON PATCH DEPENDING ON WHO DRILLED THE BARREL
 DAG
And the type of rifling some barrels have a wide groove narrow lands some are about 50/50 land to groove and some are wider lands and narrow groove. Wear? I have a couple of barrels that have been shot for a very long time and over time I have went to a larger ball and heavier patch to tighten things up and get my accuracy back.

RB
 

 


One good shot doesn't make a match but one bad shot dang sure can ruin a match!
 

2/19/2015 10:42 AM  #22


Re: 45 Cal load

I've never actually measured the bore size, groove/land width and depth, but it has always made sense to me that these can vary widely from barrel to barrel whether made by different manufacturers or even the same maker. It also makes sense that barrels made by any one maker even on the same machines can vary both from batch to batch as well as within a single run. Thus, barrels called ".45 caliber" are quite different. Same for any named caliber. This is why loading advice serves only as a general starting point, and for maximum accuracy, every little nit-picky detail has to be considered. Controlling for all these bitty details is both fun and frustrating.

When I think of all these things--lead alloy, casting temperature, mold, patch material, lube, powder lot variations, ramrod pressure, on and on--it's amazing I can hit the same piece of paper twice!


"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West
"Speed's fine, but accuracy's final." Bill Jordan
 

2/19/2015 11:58 AM  #23


Re: 45 Cal load

Kermit
a few years ago to shoot. We had a gentleman who only hit paper three times out of 10 oh that I mentioned that none of the three papers he hit were his.


Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.
Theodore Roosevelt
“I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.”
John Wayne
 

2/19/2015 1:58 PM  #24


Re: 45 Cal load

Kermit wrote:

It also makes sense that barrels made by any one maker even on the same machines can vary both from batch to batch as well as within a single run.
When I think of all these things--lead alloy, casting temperature, mold, patch material, lube, powder lot variations, ramrod pressure, on and on--it's amazing I can hit the same piece of paper twice!

Absolutely on all accounts.

Thanks for pointing this out Kermit. These are things (especially the barrel cutting) that we often overlook, and seldom if ever mention powder lots, and quite often forget to mention ramrod preasure when throwing out variables.


Joe
 

2/19/2015 8:39 PM  #25


Re: 45 Cal load

Hi Everyone,
I have been following this subject with great interest and all the different advice about powders,lubes,and on and on.... yet not one person mentioned the use of wind flags. I have found the even in off hand shooting the wind can and does cause fliers. So, a person could pass a good load over because of a flier cause by wind and never know it. Just my opinion, .445, .017 blue pillow ticking, moose milk (Ballistol, Murphy's oil soap, and water) and 55 grains of Goex 3f. is a good load. But wind flags are just as important as some of the other things mentioned.
Michael Jay

 

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Three things you must remember while target shooting. (1) Align the sights carefully. (2) Squeeze the trigger. (3) Say how did it get over there. http://prwarner.wix.com/mlts-masters